Season 3 - Rules Discussion

With the end of Season 2 in sight, I wanted to make a couple comments for Season 3
(I hope we're not taking time off with Forza 4 coming in the fall, I hope we can get at least 2 more seasons in... but that's not what I was looking to discuss)

1. Auto Brake = OFF, period...
I think it's been pretty much agreed at this point... but make to make it official

2. Collision Mode = ON, Always... No Ghosting
Why?
I think we should take the next step in realism for our races, with our new agreed upon Restart Rule in place. I don't really think this will affect anyone, but we've all had the times when you see someone spin...
Will they ghost? Won't they?
Should I drive at them and hope they do?
And they didn't... and now I either hit them or the 2 cars next to me... etc

I think we should know what to expect... it may cause more people to join a crash, but we could also reach that 50% mark easier in those earlier wrecks etc.

3. Track selection changes
It's nothing against the randomized method... (and no, I'm not playing the conspiracy game for getting Maple Valley or anything), I think we should all have some say in the track selection though...

If each racer submitted on or before the race day a list of 5 tracks/configs they would like to race for a class then from that it was randomized... so we have 8 people and maybe everyone submits their picks and we get 40 tracks in total... obviously, we will get some doubles etc, but that's fine... they just get X amount of slots in the randomizer...

Example:

Tracks X # of votes
A X2
B X1
C X5
D X2
E X3
F X1
G X2
H X1
I X2
J X2
K X1
L X1

ABCDECFGHEICJKLACDEGICJ

Once a track is picked, I can't be picked again... so if more people pick a track its more likely to be picked... but still not a sure thing

(I know it seems like a lot, but I would be willing to do it)


Thoughts? Comments? Other Suggestions?

I'd like to see some post-race penalties applied for dirty driving. Either that, or come out and agree on full wheel-to-wheel contact.

Either way, i'd like to see blocking allowed.

Also....maybe start forcing off the assists....?

S7 Epic wrote:I'd like to see some post-race penalties applied for dirty driving. Either that, or come out and agree on full wheel-to-wheel contact.

To be honest, isn't kinda that way now, on a smaller level... I race people the way they race me, I know I'm not the only one that thinks this way

S7 Epic wrote:Either way, i'd like to see blocking allowed.

and isn't it? It kinda goes with the last one, if someone is really riding you and blocking "dirty" things happen, lol

S7 Epic wrote:maybe start forcing off the assists....?

I had thought about that as well... but i think that would be something that may push away new people to forza, we're always trying to bring in new people and for same that would be REALLY over their head

i say go for it

S7 Wiggles78 wrote:1. Auto Brake = OFF, period...
I think it's been pretty much agreed at this point... but make to make it official

Fine by me but I'm not sure it really matters. If someone is going to cause more wrecks with it off, do we really want it off for them? And what's the point? Does it really cause problems? I can get around an auto-breaker no problem. Is it an unfair advantage? Not against me, but it might be unfair to some of the newer racers. If it's deemed unfair, I think we should probably ban it but we also don't want to scare off new racers that might want to use it. It's really a tricky situation. I could go either way depending on what the majority here thinks.

S7 Wiggles78 wrote:2. Collision Mode = ON, Always... No Ghosting
Why?
I think we should take the next step in realism for our races, with our new agreed upon Restart Rule in place. I don't really think this will affect anyone, but we've all had the times when you see someone spin...
Will they ghost? Won't they?
Should I drive at them and hope they do?
And they didn't... and now I either hit them or the 2 cars next to me... etc

I think we should know what to expect... it may cause more people to join a crash, but we could also reach that 50% mark easier in those earlier wrecks etc.

OK by me. Originally, it was set to default to stop people from driving backwards around the track and messing people up. I think we are beyond that at this point and no one is that immature. We are all adults here so I see no problem. And if someone actually did start driving backwards, I am pretty sure they would get banned from racing so again, no problem.

S7 Wiggles78 wrote:3. Track selection changes
It's nothing against the randomized method... (and no, I'm not playing the conspiracy game for getting Maple Valley or anything), I think we should all have some say in the track selection though...

blah, blah, blah

Also fine by me, but it seems like a lot of trouble. I am a fan of keeping things simple and I don't really see the point. 90% of the tracks are in the randomizer and we don't play favorites so this seems like more work for no good reason to me. I guess it would give some tracks a better chance of getting picked but again, it seems like a lot of work. Personally, I would much rather show up and race whatever tracks get picked.

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S7 Epic wrote:I'd like to see some post-race penalties applied for dirty driving. Either that, or come out and agree on full wheel-to-wheel contact.

This might be interesting. How would this work? Can you give an example?

S7 Epic wrote:Either way, i'd like to see blocking allowed.

My only concern here is that slower racers would be blocking the faster racers. I don't really have a problem with Glock, Wiggles or even Epic blocking me, if they have a legitimate chance of winning. But I don't want to sit behind OC (no offense, just using you as an example) who is deciding to be an ass, even thought I am several seconds faster per lap. I causes me to sit in the back longer and let the leaders run away with the race. There have been several times now that I have been running faster but still only finished 2nd due to being stuck in the pack for too long.

You also have to consider the "clean" aspect of things. If I am running a lot faster, and some douch is blocking me, it going to end in a crash. One or both of us are going to wreck out.

As it stands now, I think blocking is allowed to a certain degree, but you have to use common sense. If it's the last lap and your in the lead, go for it. And only block those who are actually threatening your position. Meaning, if you are a slower racer, let Glock pass you on lap #2. Your not competing with Glock, so there is no real point in blocking him. Except to be an ass.

You see what I'm getting at? Thoughts?

S7 Epic wrote:Also....maybe start forcing off the assists....?

Meh. I think we let drivers drive the way they want. Aside from the possible Auto-Break issue brought up earlier. If we decide to ban that we could force that off.

I think the argument for forcing auto-brake off is newer racers could beat some of the slower races with almost no chance for them to be caught. If someone like OC (our poor example for this topic) is racing pretty well against someone with autobrake on and is behind them, he has no chance of catching them. This is because in general OC's cars are slower and he has to wait for someone to make a mistake in order to pass them.

Other assists are fine. I only use TCS (sometimes) but the assists don't make you faster. I run slower with them on.

Post Race penalties would be a good idea if we had a huge paid staff of officials sitting on the track in game. Really though, there's no way to confirm what is malicious and accidental. For instance last tourney me and you had several collisions where we both had way different brake and acceleration settings.

As for blocking, I like it. I always let Interseptor and Glock go by IF the other one is ahead. If not then blocking is fine. "slowing someone down" is only relevant if their competition is ahead of you. If OC starts in front and can block everyone the whole race, then he should lol

Penalty-wise, you would just save the replay and then it could be viewed by the others on the storefront and an apt penalty be decided upon. What you'd be looking for is whose fault it was and if there was any attempt to avoid it. Then, consequently, the behaviour after that, like letting the player re-pass before pulling back onto the road.

Blocking wise, no matter how fast your car is, overtaking is an important skill. Overtaking cleanly should be no probs for you Zak, no matter who you're stuck behind. Fair enough, there may be a few incidents but they'll be from proper racing. Not Atm, people are just getting rammed up the ass in the corners by people trying to catch up.

Ultimately, we need to all be of the same mindset. IMO, F1 is a great place to start for some rule inspiration. I.E. If you cause an accident and gain a place (i.e. an overtake from it) you either give the place back, or have to drive through the pit.

I, myself, and so it would seem, Wiggles, have really been focusing on improving the clean aspect of our racing, safe overtakes, matching the breaking of the driver in front and/or taking a different line, but, understandably, when people don't follow suit, it can get very annoying. Hence why I wasn't too impressed with Atrum last week. With his corner cutting on Laguna and the ramming I recieved on Suzuka. I'm not sure if the latter was intentional but YOU don't break enough, then YOU need to be the one avoiding a collision, regardless of what happens.

Frankly, as the seasons have gotten on, the racing has become more competitive and thus, people care more about the racing, I think. So, it would be nice if we could improve the experience; If not, maybe we could trial an alternative format, such as having the ghost cars......but I don't think anyone really wants it to come down to that.

I did not intentionally hit you. At that point my car was running probably between 4-8 seconds faster per lap, thus I accelerated, knew where everyone had been braking, but slammed the brake on FAR earlier than anyone else had been. If I had saved the replay you could see that as soon as your brake lights went on mine also did, but there was no way to avoid it. As far as waiting after that, I will not wait while a car that is running slower catches up and passes me because they slammed the brake early. Especially when I witnessed firsthand them running other players off the track prior to that.

Corner cutting, everyone does it. We're not racing ghosts for hotlap leaderboard times. If I can gain time/position by going in the grass I will.

I race clean. If you could go back over all the past tourney replays you would see probably 50% of the races I have been wrecked out in the first couple turns but still don't ram someone in return. It's part of racing. 99% of the time it's an accident. Even so we race stricter than WCG does with their forza.

Well, hitting and accidents will happen. It's a fact. I just don't want to open the door to more aggressive hitting. Basically, I want everyone to try and race clean. You can block, but I would prefer if it was only in the competitive nature and for defending your position, not just to be an ass. But you should be aware that blocking takes you off the normal lines and might cause an accident. If you are blocking and get wrecked out, I don't want to hear anyone complaining. (ex. Swerving left and right, and then clipping a bumper etc...) That is why Blocking is a bit of a touche subject but it has never really been banned. Glock has done it to me and I have never complained. I know Tico went off one time but really, blocking is allowed, I just don't want it abused.

Also to clarify I have been having an absolute blast racing with you guys during these seasons. I'd say this is easily the most active non-supported game we've ever had.

I actually think I like Forza better then most of our supported games over the years. I have a great time, win or lose. It's also refreshing to play one game for a long period of time rather than getting a new one every year. I am glad Forza 4 is coming out soon and I hope it's at least a couple of years till Forza 5.

Back on topic... somewhat... I do agree with Epic, not directly concerning Atrum because I didn't see it, but about racing from behind. If you are behind someone, you should do your best to brake early and avoid hitting the guy in front at all costs. Even if it means going off the road. Sometimes it unavoidable and I honestly don't think anyone here does it on purpose but it is the driver in the back that has to be aware. 90% of the time it their fault if they hit someone. Different cars brake at different distances depending on many factors (weight, upgrades and base braking performances). lets say that your car brakes from 100-0 in 300 ft and the guy in front brakes at 280 ft. If you hit the brakes at the same time, you will hit him...hard. Give it the benefit of the doubt and brake a little early or make sure your line will carry you around him and not into him.

AtrumX wrote:I did not intentionally hit you. At that point my car was running probably between 4-8 seconds faster per lap, thus I accelerated, knew where everyone had been braking, but slammed the brake on FAR earlier than anyone else had been. If I had saved the replay you could see that as soon as your brake lights went on mine also did, but there was no way to avoid it. As far as waiting after that, I will not wait while a car that is running slower catches up and passes me because they slammed the brake early. Especially when I witnessed firsthand them running other players off the track prior to that.

Corner cutting, everyone does it. We're not racing ghosts for hotlap leaderboard times. If I can gain time/position by going in the grass I will.

I race clean. If you could go back over all the past tourney replays you would see probably 50% of the races I have been wrecked out in the first couple turns but still don't ram someone in return. It's part of racing. 99% of the time it's an accident. Even so we race stricter than WCG does with their forza.

I have the replay, so i'll check it but i'm fairly sure I didn't run anybody off of the track.

Cutting corners is total BS though, IMO. I don't mind getting a little extra grass too much but the entire corkscrew turn on Laguna...that wasn't right.


I agree, Zak. This has easily been one of the better supported clan games and I think that we should consider fully supporting future racing games, like DiRT 3 and Forza 4.

I think things are starting to get very complicated here... I personally like simple....If you want different tricks in the rotation than fine we can change tat easy... as far as penalties and special rules and all the complaining here... let's not forget why we race... for fun. I think everyone has gotten boned one time or another... sh1t happens.

S7 Glock wrote:sh1t happens.

that it does...

As for post race docking of points etc... I don't think it's needed... if there are problems with people time and time again, they seem to work themselves out... remember some douche named Big Bear...


And the track thing... I do realize it seems like a lot of work/a little excessive on the whole thinking thing too... but like I said I would be more than willing to handle that end of it... even if we changed it to "Pick 3 Locations" and then all tracks that qualify for that class would be entered in or something... still pick things night of the tourney... I know that 90% of us are waiting an hour before etc...
personally I don't really care... I know we're still gonna end up with tracks that at least someone hates... I was just thinking for a little more community input...

I guess I don't understand what your issue is with a random generation from a list of tracks selected by Zak and I last season for each class

S7 Glock wrote:I guess I don't understand what your issue is with a random generation from a list of tracks selected by Zak and I last season for each class

I think I'm not the only one that's a little sad not too see some tracks... and there are some that we have raced so many times, it just seems like a chore to play those...

Yeah, some tracks suck, or just aren't suited to multiplayer.

Tbh, though, if it was up to me, we'd just race Silverstone all the time, lol.

I'm not sure what the track is that has the 2 ridiculous u-turns in a row but that was always a blast to race.

Sidewinder I? (Really long curvy track?)

Probably, that's kind of what I was thinking. It has a decent straightaway then 2 u-turns that you literally have to stop to make lol

or e-brake. Yeah, I think that's what you are thinking about.

Yup, that's the one. Why is that not in the circuit?

It is and we have raced it in Tourneys in the past. Random selection...

Hmm, weird that I missed those lol.

On that note I like the idea of:
A- Everyone posting their 3-5 favorite tracks, the most voted are chosen.
B- Put up a poll with all the eligible tracks and use the top voted.

If ya want to change what tracks are in the list I have no issues at all... I'll post up a iist soon